City of Worms (July 26, 2001)> > - Title: The Next Glade
> Okay, now that is odd, Adam. How do you come to include "The Next Glade"
> among the three best from Aickman? I have read that one three times. I find
> it boring and inexplicable, even for RA and would never even consider it for
> a best list.
> Oh wait, I see now that it is "favorite" tale in this survey. Can I change
> my answers? I mistook 'best' and 'favorite' and I have different Aickman
> favorites this week.
> I will amend my original question - how does "The Next Glade" become a
> favorite Aickman tale? That is a rough one.
>
> -bf, who loves DARK CITYI highly disagree that "The Next Glade" is boring. Inexplicable, maybe, but aren't all our favorite Aickman tales, to varying degrees?
While it mightn't make my "Favorite Aickmans" list, "The Next Glade" is a stunning mood piece from Aickman, and much more overtly surreal than most of his work. The scenes in the woods have that subtly disquieting mood that pervades many of Aickman's more celebrated atmospheric tales, a sense of things being just not quite right, of reality slipping slightly out of kilter, that hangs over the scene in spite of the ordinariness of its details. Such is the power of Aickman's prose that it can make the real world seem so eerily UNREAL, and leave us, the readers, unable to pinpoint precisely WHERE the slippage occurs.
oOo
Adam Walter (July 26, 2001)
This is also one of the tales that open up so much weirdness that by the time I'm halfway through it, I can't imagine how he's going to end it. It seems a sheer miracle the way he pulls off the very subtle and (for me, at least) very satisfying ending.~Adam
oOo
Jim Rockhill (July 29, 2001)
This is one of Aickman's tales that leaves me more puzzled than satisfied. The atmosphere in the forest is indeed powerful, but I cannot make the components of the remainder of the tale mesh satisfactorily.Why is John so excessively complimentary of the heroine? Surely this is not a mere series of pick-up lines.
Why does he give her one name for himself, then later insist that this is not his name?
Why do her friends offer different names and characters for him?
Is he some emblem for the ephemerality of physical love? Do Mut's statements about her own lovers say something to this effect? Does the final scene with her son also reinforce this?
What relation does John have with the heroine's husband's death?
Why is the border to the next glade still stained with her husband's blood?
Why is John or his doppelganger horrified when he looks up from his trench?
Just what in blazes is going on in that trench John or his doppelganger dug in front of his ephemeral cottage?
Here is a passage concening the dreams that precipitated Emanuel Swedenborg's shift from physical scientist to "spiritual scientist" in April 1744 from Harvey F. Bellin's essay "Opposition Is True Friendship" in the book of the same name ):
"He began to recognize that his inner awareness, his soul, was writing these dramas to tell him something of importance. She was communicating in her own powerful image-language, with a vocabulary so bizarre that it defied rational analysis, yet seemed to convey its meanings at a deeper, more direct level of awareness." Harvey F. Bellin and Darrell Ruhl (eds.) BLAKE AND SWEDENBORG: OPPOSITION IS TRUE FRIENDSHIP (The Swededenborg Foundation, 1985), p.44
This strikes me as remarkably similar, though in a secular sense, to what we see occurring in Aickman's tales.
Jim
(Wondering if the images in this tale are not so personal as to defy explication by anyone aside from the author.)oOo
blackfrancis (July 30, 2001)
Jim Rockhill wrote:
> This is one of Aickman's tales that leaves me more puzzled than
> satisfied. The atmosphere in the forest is indeed powerful, but I
> cannot make the components of the remainder of the tale mesh
> satisfactorily.I agree. Just saying "The scenes in the woods were cool!" does not define why one would list a tale as a favorite. That says nothing about the action/proceedings going on at other points in the tale.
> Why is John so excessively complimentary of the heroine? Surely this is
> not a mere series of pick-up lines.Correct. If one takes the tale at face value, John, is an invented character. In Noelle's mind he does not really exist. Appearing and disappearing without rhyme or reason. This is re-stated in the exchange she has with Kay, who has offered to care for the family after the funeral of Melvin. Speaking about the Mystery Man:
"He may be a neighbor," said Noelle. "But you never heard of him?"
"Never," said Kay. "And I don't believe you did either. You've just dreamed him up."Aickman hints strongly toward this supposition throughout the story. John tells Noelle, "Go on,... Go on as though I were not here." when crossing toward the "next glade" for a final third time. He vanishes into thin air. Earlier at the party where they met, his exit was this - "...,the man dissolved into the glare and the din..." Words like "dissolve" and "no longer visible" assign attributes to this character. He is not a physical being. Whether created in Noelle's mind or a "ghost" it is hard to say. At any rate it seems that he is fulfilling some fantastic desire of our heroine, therefore he is a figment of her imagination saying things pleasing to a lonely woman.
**> Why does he give her one name for himself, then later insist that this
> is not his name?See above. He exists only in her mind. She is rationalizing his existence.
***> Why do her friends offer different names and characters for him?
She is making him up in her mind from pieces of information about other men in her area. Rumors of other men filtered into her delusion. Uh?
****> Is he some emblem for the ephemerally of physical love? Do Kay's
> statements about her own lovers say something to this effect? Does the
> final scene with her son also reinforce this?Oedipal rings loudly in the scenes with Agnew, the son, and Noelle, the mother. Aickman tells us plainly that Judith, Melvin and Noelle's daughter behaves like her mother and that Agnew their son is patterned after the father. One could be reminded of the bizarre familial relations in Aickman's ludicrous but entertaining tale "Marriage". In "The Next Glade" though it seems that he is really pushing some perverse buttons with the scenes between mom and son. They are in bed together and he seems uncannily drawn to press himself next to her. As she speaks on the phone to Mut concerning her ill husband, it is Agnew who is at the center of the scene. He instinctively and unconsciously has developed a need for physical closeness with Noell. Laying his head in her lap, clutching her waist, and finally, at the end "...squeezing himself tightly against her breast...". What is THAT?
****> What relation does John have with the heroine's husband's death?
Good question.
I'll try - None. John does not exist (see above). If anything it was Noelle herself
that precipitated her spouse's demise.
***> Why is the border to the next glade still stained with her husband's
> blood?Because she is guilty. (now i am winging it)
***> Why is John or his doppelganger horrified when he looks up from his
> trench?Because he is not real (see above) and thereby horrified to be discovered by the REAL world. (fading....)
***> Just what in blazes is going on in that trench John or his
> doppelganger dug in front of his ephemeral cottage?Making space for big business, that's all!!! Guess I am out of thoughts. I did read the story again last night. I liked it more than before, but still found it less of a story than all of SUB ROSA and tales like "The Stains", "The Hospice", and on. I still cannot understand listing it as a favorite. "Into the Wood" had similar wilderness as reflection of psyche themes that developed into a far superior tale. "The Next Glade" still does not rank as top-notch Aickman as far as I am concerned. Anyone want to prove me wrong? I say good, not Great.
-blackfrancis
oOo
Jim Rockhill (July 31, 2001)
These all sound reasonable, bf, but it still does not seem to tell the whole story. I like your comparison to "Marriage," because I too was reminded of that tale while reading this one. I will have to admit, however, that I have never cared for "Marriage." Although far from being a favorite, I think "The Next Glade" is a much more interesting tale.Jim
oOo
blackfrancis (July 31, 2001)
I know it doesn't tell the whole story. "Marriage" makes me laugh so I kind of like it, but I am not going to say it is Great Aickman. You're right that "The Next Glade" is more interesting, which I DID see this time around. Thanks to John and Adam I have seen more merit in this one than I did before. I was not trying to start an argument or anything. I am open to what anyone has to say. I merely wanted to know what I was missing about this very puzzling story. Maybe it is just a matter of taste.-bf
oOo
Jim Rockhill (July 31, 2001)
I did not mean to accuse you of "dissing" anyone's choice, bf.Jim
(Who knows he is going to have re-read "Marriage" soon.)oOo
Adam Walter (July 30, 2001)
blackfrancis wrote:
>Correct. If one takes the tale at face value, John, is an invented
>character.Well, I don't seem to have received the message that blackfrancis is replying to... and anyway, to give a detailed response I'd have to re-read the story.
But I'll say this about the above--Aickman does something especially well with this character that he does in so many of his stories. That is, he keeps the tension of the Is-this-real-or-not? question balanced in a very tantalizing way. While Aickman gives us some clues about who (or, what) John is, and while I have my own ideas--I'm also quite happy to leave the nature of this character nebulous. It's a bit like certain fairy tales; if you let yourself get sucked into playing a question game with magical creatures, they often end up biting your head off as soon as you make one wrong move.>Making space for big business, that's all!!! Guess I am out of thoughts. I
>did read the story again last night. I liked it more than before, but still
>found it less of a story than all of SUB ROSA and tales like "The Stains",
>"The Hospice", and on. I still cannot understand listing it as a favorite.
>"Into the Wood" had similar wilderness as reflection of psyche themes that
>developed into a far superior tale. "The Next Glade" still does not rank as
>top-notch Aickman as far as I am concerned. Anyone want to prove me wrong?
>I say good, not Great.Well, this doesn't bother me. I guess people often imply that some of my favorite Aickman tales (like "The View" and "Larger Than Oneself") are inferior to certain other tales which I don't have nearly the same level of affection for (like "Ravissante," "Pages from a Young Girl's Journal," and "The Same Dog")
~Adam
oOo
Adam Walter (July 31, 2001)
Add to the list of Incredible Tales, "Meeting Mr. Millar." I've just re-read it and found it to be even better than I remembered, yet no one ever mentions it. Aickman "in top form," IMHO.~Adam
oOo
blackfrancis (July 31, 2001)
I agree - an excellent story and "top form Aickman". No argument on that one! So much happens in "Meeting Mr. Miller" it seems like several stories pressed together into one claustrophobic nightmare.-bf
oOo
Jim Rockhill (July 31, 2001)
> I guess people often imply that some of my favorite Aickman tales
> (like "The View" and "Larger Than Oneself")are inferior to certain other
> tales which I don't have nearly the same level of affection for
> like "Ravisante," "Pages from a Young Girl's Journal," and "The Same Dog")
>
> ~AdamAlthough I like to know why someone may choose one tale over another and look forward to their hopefully justifying their preference in such a way as to enlighten the rest of us, I think it is a mistake to actually denigrate anyone's choice of one tale over another. I have caught myself doing the same thing, unfortunately. It is such a shock to know that someone out there actually enjoyed a tale that many of the rest of us did not "get" at all. Some tales, such as "Pages from a Young Girl's Journal" and "Marriage," seem merely ordinary to me, but were anyone here willing to point out how brilliantly subversive or richly allusive they were, I would be delighted. For instance, I wish Robert Kunath would explain his affection for "The Insufficient Answer," not because I feel it is a bad tale, but because I am conscious of missing something essential to my appreciation of the tale and trust Robert's judgment enough to know that he will be able to articulate it. Someone else, who may wish to remain anonymous, has also expressed some interest in opening a discussion of that marvelous tale, "The Stains."
Any of the tales mentioned on this thread would be a welcome topic for discussion, unfortunately, as has ben mentioned, sustained, repetitive discussion of Aickman's tales is well-nigh impossible. The tales are just too rich to constitute anyone's exclusive diet.
"The View," though it does not always reach my top 10 list, is one of my favorites and I think "Larger Than Oneself" is a much better tale than is suggested by the paucity of discussion it has received. "Meeting Mr. Millar," mentioned in a later post is one of those miraculous tales that seems most terrifying, precisely because so much of it does not make sense on a conscious level. That scene where the office staff is tossing the jacket into the air sends chills up my spine. I am amazed that, although many of us have expressed admiration for it, we still have not gone into "The Cicerones" in any depth. What would M.R. James have though of that one?
Hopefully, eventually, this group will make its way through a discussion of ALL Aickman's tales. That would suit me just fine.
Jim
oOo
Adam Walter (July 31, 2001)
Jim Rockhill wrote:>For instance, I wish
>Robert Kunath would explain his affection for "The Insufficient
>Answer," not because I feel it is a bad tale, but because I am
>conscious of missing something essential to my appreciation of the
>tale and trust Robert's judgment enough to know that he will be able
>to articulate it.
I also really like this story. But it's incredibly frustrating because the ending is so impenetrable. What exactly does happen in that climactic moment??
~Adam
oOo
City of Worms (July 31, 2001)
Jim Rockhill wrote:
> This is one of Aickman's tales that leaves me more puzzled than
> satisfied. The atmosphere in the forest is indeed powerful, but I
> cannot make the components of the remainder of the tale mesh
> satisfactorily.You raise some excellent questions, Jim, ones which I'm in no position to address. Yes, I need to read this one again before attempting any meaningful comment on it. My point was merely that the initial atmosphere generated by this story in its early scenes was strong enough to leave a lasting impression on me, and that by itself I consider sufficient to elevate this story beyond the boring. Admittedly, I'm a bit foggy on the later details, although I do recall the startling image of the massive subterranean "office building" (a faceless pencil-pusher's vision of hell?), as well as the uncertain identity and the never-quite-solidified intimations of murder and bloodshed.
There is no question that I was never able to merge the details into a satisfactory explanation of events; otherwise I'd remember it all a lot better, no doubt. The details and their meanings could very well be too personal in nature to allow for more general interpretation. Still, for the moment I'm only claiming that the story isn't boring. It may well be perfectly inexplicable, but I still enjoyed it.
But no more from me on this until the story is fresh in my mind.
John
oOo
Jim Rockhill (July 31, 2001)
The tale is too disturbing to be boring; I just wish I had a better idea how it was all meant to cohere. I like your "faceless pencil-pusher's vision of hell."Jim
oOo
blackfrancis (July 29, 2001)
Okay, "boring" might have been the improper word to describe this tale. I said that I had read it 3 times and that is fact, but maybe "uninteresting" would have been a better choice. I found it so stale of a work that I can barely recall any of the action or details of the thing. Heck, I can barely recall writing this post *about* this story. I just, at the time, found it surprising that someone would name it as a favorite over so many other fascinating tales.
Now that you brought this up an interesting thought popped into my head. Follow me here. I know I get on this group and spout off about a bucket load of Aickman tales and weird ideas (i.e. the silent animal thing) I have about his work, but this one is odd.
Excluding Deathbird's listing of "Just A Song at Twilight" and Adam's of "The Next Glade" the Relationship tales that Aickman wrote have been excluded in most of our dissections. In fact the tales dealing largely with the a breakdown of normal man/wife relationships are hardly even mentioned in our discussions of this writer. Stories like "The Clockwatcher", "Compulsary Games", "Growing Boys", "No Stronger Than a Flower", "Ringing the Changes" and the two above are seldom commented upon in this group. Most of the critical or introductory work I have read on Aickman, which is limited, seldom mention this category of Aickman tale save for "Ringing the Changes". I guess "Wood" could classify in this group, but the odd narrative framework tends to discount it in my mind. Arguments could also be made for "Ravissante", "Into the Wood", and "A Roman Question" falling into this loose strain, but I think the fact that the marital relation has only been used as a tool should discount them. They do not focus on the actual breakdown of the normal institution enough to qualify like the other. Example - the husband in "Into the Wood" is not the central crux -"Dragon-smoke" if you will - in his wife's descent into Aickman's maze of puzzlement just like Maybury's wife did not play a role in the events of "The Hospice" save as background or scenery. It is just a filling in of information and not the direct turning point that is present when someone becomes estranged or wanders from Happily Married into Aickmanland. C'mon you guys, just admit that the Loner Aickman tales are better!!!!-blackfrancis, just realizing that the Gothic Aickman ("The Unsettled Dust", "Residents Only", "The Insufficient Answer", "Pages from a Young Girl's Journal", etc.) are also sorely absent in our discussions. Maybe we should form a Alt.Books.Aickman-Tales or something
oOo
City of Worms (July 31, 2001)
blackfrancis wrote:
> Okay, "boring" might have been the improper word to describe this tale. I
> said that I had read it 3 times and that is fact, but maybe "uninteresting"
> would have been a better choice.So I suppose my position on this story is somewhere between yours and Adam's, but probably leaning towards Adam's favorable view. In my mind this is not at all a stale and uninteresting tale (I have trouble just imagining these descriptions in reference to an Aickman story, but maybe that's just me), and yet "The Next Glade" isn't a title that springs to mind when I think "Favorite Aickman stories"--it might make, say, a top 50 or 75 or so, but no way a top 10 or 20.
> C'mon you guys, just admit that the Loner Aickman tales are better!!!!
>
> -blackfrancis, just realizing that the Gothic Aickman ("The Unsettled Dust",
> "Residents Only", "The Insufficient Answer", "Pages from a Young Girl's
> Journal", etc.) are also sorely absent in our discussions. Maybe we should
> form a Alt.Books.Aickman-Tales or somethingA very interesting point, but I disagree with your conclusion. I think the tales you mention haven't been addressed only because the stories that do crop up for discussion lend themselves to so much speculation that the group seems to get worn out on Aickman for a while thereafter. I'd really like to hear more thoughts on the stories you mention, the under-discussed relationship stories (with perhaps the exception of "Ringing the Changes"). Hey, let's get some diversity going! And anyway, there are still plenty of the "Loner" stories to delve into. Why, I think "The Cicerones" still has yet to be thoroughly vivisected here--and where the hell are the two Bills while we're at it?
John
oOo
[six months later]
Adam Walter (February 4, 2002)
Below is a new piece on Aickman's "The Next Glade," just submitted to Almahu for her consideration.As always, I'm glad to receive any constructive criticism.
Much thanks to Jim Rockhill for taking the time to preview it.~Adam
*****
Encountering the Unknown in Aickman’s "The Next Glade"
by Adam Walter
oOo
Jim Rockhill (February 5, 2002)
As I told you off the ng, Adam, this is a fine, thought-provoking piece. I am amazed that it has not yet generated any comment.John is indeed a fascinating, cryptic character, and can be seen in a number of different ways. As is Aickman's wont, no attempt to "interpret" him really works, because attempts to follow this or that mythic allusion trail off or change shape. However, Noelle does seem to me to owe some debt to either Persephone or Eurydice. Her husband's way of life is later shown, round the cottage in the glade, to be an underground affair. This may be one of the prime reasons John had been enjoining her to look up; Aickman is not just shedding a tear because trash litters the forest floor. Is he not leading her out of Hades?
Jim
oOo
Adam Walter (February 5, 2001)
Jim Rockhill wrote:
>As I told you off the ng, Adam, this is a fine, thought-provoking
>piece. I am amazed that it has not yet generated any comment.I imagine some folks will want to read the story again first, and I'm all for that.
>However, Noelle does seem
>to me to owe some debt to either Persephone or Eurydice. Her husband's
>way of life is later shown, round the cottage in the glade, to be an
>underground affair. This may be one of the prime reasons John had been
>enjoining her to look up; Aickman is not just shedding a tear because
>trash litters the forest floor. Is he not leading her out of Hades?This is a wonderful idea, and I should read the story again myself with this in mind... I wonder if Dante and Virgil (as character models) work too?
~Adam
oOo
City of Worms (February 6, 2001)
Adam Walter wrote:
> I imagine some folks will want to read the story again first, and I'm
> all for that.Speaking for myself, this is 100% the case. Skimming Adam's article has served to remind me that I've forgotten almost everything about the story.
Thanks for giving us a look. I'll try to get to it when the story is fresh in my mind.
John
oOo
blackfrancis (February 7, 2001)
Jim wrote:> >As I told you off the ng, Adam, this is a fine, thought-provoking
> >piece. I am amazed that it has not yet generated any comment.Then Adam wrote:
>
> I imagine some folks will want to read the story again first, and I'm
> all for that.
>Finally, blackfrancis writes:
I agree with Jim. It's a good piece. My problem stems from not caring much for this Aickman tale to begin with. The essay enlightens me some, but I still find the action of this one a bit dull. Just reading over the plot description in it - woman meets stranger, they go for a walk in the woods, woman & husband walk in the wood, and on - doesn't make it seem much more exciting.
I prefer my Aickman with a bit more sex and violence. I like the weirder of the strange tales. This one has always seemed so ordinary from the man who wrote "The Inner Room" and "The Hospice". The piece gives me a grasp on what the tale "means" which helps and I hope almahu includes it.The introductory section before you actually start talking about "The Next Glade" seems like another essay of itself. I think you could expand upon those first 3 paragraphs more and go into further detail with that section. You have some excellent interconnecting thoughts that tie together Aickman's world view with his fiction in this part and later on about the tale itself. I liked that alot. You mesh together the RA ideal into one interesting picture. Very nice, but after three readings and your excellent essay I STILL cannot call "The Next Glade" a favorite. Nice work. I am just not obsessive over this one like some of the others.
oOo
Adam Walter (February 7, 2001)
blackfrancis wrote:
>I agree with Jim.It's a good piece. My problem stems from not caring much
>for this Aickman tale to begin with. The essay enlightens me some, but I
>still find the action of this one a bit dull. Just reading over the plot
>description in it - woman meets stranger, they go for a walk in the woods,
>woman & husband walk in the wood,and on - doesn't make it seem much more
>exciting.
>I prefer my Aickman with a bit more sex and violence. I like the weirder of
>the strange tales. This one has always seemed so ordinary from the man who
>wrote "The Inner Room" and "The Hospice".
I'm not sure that a plot synopsis of the two tales above would thrill most people very much. But then it is usually the way Aickman creates and sustains a mood that affects me the most (as opposed to plot), and I think he does an excellent job of that here.
And the writing, in general, is top notch. Probably my favorite moment in "The Next Glade" comes with the depiction of Noelle's children when the family goes for their walk. Sheer artistry!
>The introductory section before you actually start talking about "The Next
>Glade" seems like another essay of itself. I think you could expand upon
>those first 3 paragraphs more and go into further detail with that section.
I had an interesting time keeping that section under control. I wanted to keep things tied to the issues of the story and Aickman's authorial motivations, but the temptation is always there to get sidetracked into his very interesting worldview.
~AdamooOoo